THE BASIC PROBLEM WITH SECTS [241b]

Following on from previous posts, I wish to point out what the foundational problem is in sects and Christian based organisations that do not conform to the accepted norms of the faith.

There is only one basic, fundamental problem, and that is the most important thing of all. They neglect to see and admit that they are totally dependent on God’s love as He has already enacted it in Jesus on the cross. That He not only forgives, but that He has already forgiven, and it is the surety and certainty of God and His love, that they deny.

So rather than admit to HIS righteousness, they try to establish their own, by following in the righteous footsteps of Christ. In other words, they try to do it themselves. They try to be “Christ like”. They do not recognise that God has already taken on board (since the foundation of the world) and dealt with all and every aspect of sin and the sin condition.

They fail to recognise that God has provided and given His love to them in the form of His Son, and the following Holy Spirit, as the means by which we can succeed in overcoming all that is not of Him. Their doctrine insists that the Spirit is only that which is instilled in them by reading the word, that there is no direct spiritual link between God and man.

Therefore they are self-sufficient, not Christ sufficient, and when “self” fails, as it always does, there is nothing left but flesh. The “spirit” they have is of the flesh, of their own making, and how can it be otherwise when they teach this very thing in denial of the indwelling, GIFT of righteousness, of himself, of His love. [Spirit]

Therefore error in other teaching matters little  because it is this one which is their downfall, what amounts to the denial of Christ, who He was and is, and what He did for us. This is why real love is impossible for them to attain or to manifest, because they have denied the means by which that love, that nature of God, is to be received.*

(some) “Christadelphians” for example, who DO manage to come to a knowledge of God’s love, do so DESPITE the teaching, not because of it, but this is a theoretical situation, because this means some kind of internal “double shuffle” has to go on in their minds, because it is at variance with the main thrust of their teaching. Some of their groups who have doctrinally shifted sideways somewhat, may exhibit “life”, but such variations are inevitably, sooner or later, “squashed” by the upper heirachy, being either forced to conform or to be disfellowshipped.

  • * The real issue is of them being more concerned with indoctrinating people than simply LOVING them, and them not recognising that this is what God requires. By their insistence on what is doctrinal purity according to them, they deny the love of God and hence deny it for themselves also.
  • It is reliance on God and His love that is asked for, but if you do not believe that this is what has been given in Christ then you can never receive it yourself, nor will you make it available to others.
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11 thoughts on “THE BASIC PROBLEM WITH SECTS [241b]

  1. May we say it is wrong to consider us a sect or cult. Christadelphians are people who sincerely follow the words of the Bible and leave out human doctrines and leave pagan rites and traditions aside.

    We have no idea from where you get it that we would like to “indoctrinate” people and even spend more time and energy on that instead of loving people. We preach the agapè love and try to preach peace, even trying to reconcile people form all sorts of culture and religion, without pressing our own ideas onto them.

    Concerning that we would “not conform to the accepted norms of the faith” would be better said “to your norm of faith”. As Christians we do follow the teachings of the master teacher Jeshua (Jesus Christ) and do believe that he is the son of man, the son of God, the sent one from God, the Kristos or Christ, the Messiah and the Way to God. You may perhaps not believe those things, but they are all Biblical truth according to the infallible Word of God.

    You also give false information by writing

    ” They neglect to see and admit that they are totally dependent on God’s love as He has already enacted it in Jesus on the cross. That He not only forgives, but that He has already forgiven, and it is the surety and certainty of God and His love, that they deny.”

    We are totally aware of God His love and also of Christ his love. You take them as the same person bagattlising Christ his sacrificial offering whilst we give much more honour to Christ than trinitarians who believe Jesus is God and as such would be a person who is a spirit to whom man can do nothing and who can not be tempted nor die, whilst we believe Jesus was really tempted and really died. We totally respect Jesus for putting his own will aside. You, with taking Jesus to be God, would have him done always his own will. For us Jesus really managed to do the Will of his heavenly Father, the Only One True God, the God of Israel, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and having given his life as a payment for the sins of all people, offering himself as a Lamb of God, really totally trusting god His promises. In your way of thinking , when you follow the bible saying that God is an eternal omniscient being, knowing everything, Jesus would not have to worry about his life or a resurrection … worse … in your way of thinking Jesus being God, Jesus would have told many lies, have faked his temptations and death and resurrection and would not have given any proof to man that man can be resurrected from the dead.

    You also may not like it that we do our utmost best for following in the righteous footsteps of Christ, trying to become like him, like he demanded. You naturally would have problem with such following and us trying to become one with Christ like he is one with his Father, like he demanded from his followers. In your trinitarian idea taking such unity to be Jesus being god, would make us in such unity also to be Christ and to be God. A thing we never would believe so.

    What do you mean with

    “They do not recognise that God has already taken on board (since the foundation of the world) and dealt with all and every aspect of sin and the sin condition.”

    We are very well aware that in the garden of Eden after the fall of man God provided already a solution against the curse of death. It seems you are not at all enough aware of Christadelphian teachings. Therefore we would like to ask you to take a closer look at our teachings. Today you may find several websites where you can find out what we really teach and how we do follow the Words of God, like they are written in the Bible. From the many websites you shall come to see that we just see what many trinitarians do not see or not want to understand, how God gave His Word already there in that Garden and how that Word been given became in the flesh 2020 years ago.

    We also do have no idea what you mean that there would have to take place an ” internal “double shuffle” in our minds. We look forward to some explanation about that and other matters you accuse us of.

    again a proof you do not know much about Christadelphians is wanting your readers to believe we can be ““squashed” by the upper heirachy, being either forced to conform or to be disfellowshipped”. In our churchsytem there is no hierarchy at all like in your church. For us Christ Jesus is the cornerstone of the Church and each individual is responsible for himself … that is just one of the very difficult matters when people want to convert to our faith, most people want to put the fault or responsibility for act to other people or to a devil (Satan). Each person is also responsible for his own thoughts and actions. It is not up to judge them but Jesus.

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    • God gives life by taking away death. He took death away in the body of Jesus. This is what he is asking us to believe. If we do not believe this, then we are not believing the righteousness that he is, and we are seeking to establish another level of righteousness, “our” righteousness, IE “self” righteousness. Only the complete removal of sin that condemns us in any way shape or form will free us from its power so we can then freely apprehend the Spirit that He is. If we do not believe that He has done this, we are not grasping the covenant that he has enacted, and we might as well be Jews, rather than Christians. There are no conditions, either on what he has done or on how we apprehend it, yet this is what happens with distortions of the gospel. There is nothing we can do to add to His righteousness, or to earn it, we can only accept it in the form that it has been given, by his complete and utter destruction of the power of sin to condemn. I have seen firsthand how not believing this truth destroys lives by throwing the responsibility for righteousness back onto the person, instead of allowing Jesus to do it for us, since we were never in a position anyway to do so unless He do this for us. It doesn’t matter how hard one tries to be righteous, unless he accepts the righteousness of the complete love and mercy as displayed on the cross, he will never attain the kind of righteousness that God requires, which is based upon the absence of death because Jesus took it upon himself, and for no other reason (other than his loving forgiveness). Because people have been completely freed from the power of their death state to condemn them, they are free to choose and pursue life. I realise that there are many differing Christadelphian groups, some not even aware of the existence of the others, and their views may differ somewhat, and certainly there may have been some progression from the views of their founders. But since denial of those views is not particularly forthcoming, it is difficult to acknowledge some of the more enlightened in their midst, and the fruit of their atonement doctrine remains tragic, as any search of the internet for ex Christadelphian members will reveal, or any such group who denies the absolute destruction of the power of the kingdom of sin by the revealed love of God, which is what the cross does and is.

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      • Can you give Biblical proof for what you saying here: “God gives life by taking away death. He took death away in the body of Jesus. This is what he is asking us to believe. If we do not believe this, then we are not believing the righteousness that he is, and we are seeking to establish another level of righteousness, “our” righteousness, IE “self” righteousness. ”

        We do believe Jesus his words; which trinitarians do not want to accept. So who do you think would follow Christ more those who believe in Jesus and in the one Who sent Jesus or the ones who follow the false human doctrine of the Trinity and take Jesus to be God instead of Jesus to be the son of God and the sent one from God!

        We do believe the One Who sent Jesus and declared him to be His only begotten son; though you do not believe Jesus came from God (because you think he is God himself according to you). We also believe he is the promised one, the solution against the curse of death (like told in the Garden of Eden) and have faith in him and trusting his heavenly Father. You do not trust a man could do such thing, to be obedient to God, whilst we are convinced Jesus really put away his own will to do the Will of his heavenly Father. We believe the Word of God where is said it is according to the Grace of Gdo that we are saved and not by taking on or adhering a human dogma of the Trinity. We are convinced we may live in peace by our faith in the son of God, who is the radiance of God’s Glory, and not by a faith in a god son, like you do. It is that Jesus who’m we take to be our high priest before God and our mediator, whilst you do not want to see him as a mediator between God and man, like the Bible tells us.

        “And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not.” (John 5:38 ASV)

        “46 For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” (John 5:46-47 ASV)

        “29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou?” (John 6:29-30 ASV)

        “But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.” (John 6:36 ASV)

        “But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.” (John 6:64 ASV)

        “And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God.” (John 6:69 ASV)

        “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24 ASV)

        “45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not. 46 ¶ Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?” (John 8:45-46 ASV)

        “Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (John 9:35 ASV)

        “Now know we that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.” (John 16:30 ASV)

        “And behold, thou shalt be silent and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall come to pass, because thou believedst not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” (Luke 1:20 ASV)

        “And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.” (Luke 8:12 ASV)

        “And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24:25 ASV)

        “and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great.” (Mark 16:4 ASV)

        “But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.” (Acts 15:11 ASV)

        “but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,” (Romans 4:24 ASV)

        “But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;” (Romans 6:8 ASV)

        “9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10 ASV)

        “And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23 ASV)

        “These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, [even] unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13 ASV)

        “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV)

        “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.” (Galatians 2:20 ASV)

        “So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee:” (Hebrews 5:5 ASV)

        “though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews 5:8 ASV)

        “without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God), abideth a priest continually.” (Hebrews 7:3 ASV)

        “For the law appointeth men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was after the law, [appointeth] a Son, perfected for evermore.” (Hebrews 7:28 ASV)

        “Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one; but God is one.” (Galatians 3:20 ASV)

        “For neither at any time were we found using words of flattery, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness, God is witness;” (1 Thessalonians 2:5 ASV)

        “But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.” (Hebrews 8:6 ASV)

        “And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.” (Hebrews 9:15 ASV)

        “and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.” (Hebrews 12:24 ASV)

        This are all words from Scripture trinitarians seem to neglect.

        You do as if we would think we can add to God His righteousness, something no Christadelphian ever said or would say. So why do you say such things and want your readers to believe such lies?

        Christadelphians are a very small community and in it, lots of people do know other Christadelphians very well and are aware of the tiny differences in the several groups. Like in other denominations you also have very conservatives, more progressive ones and more liberal groups in our community.

        On the internet you might find ex Christadelphians, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses like you might find ex-Lutherans, ex-Anglicans, ex-Catholics, ex-Protestants of all sorts of which also many became ex-believers or became atheists. When would would accept all what they say about their previous church than we would have to conclude they are all the same horrible liars, indoctrinators, sodomists, child abusers and so much more. Please be realist and see also how many ex-church members often do everything to denounce their previous religious group, be them trinitarian, non-trinitarian or even non-Christian. The ex-members sites who tell the most rubbish or untruth always avoid people can react to their site or do not allow postings from people who are still in a group they were. Those where no reaction is possible should let you wonder about their sincerity and should let you come to see that they are not telling the truth. somebody who is telling the truth shall not have to shame himself to let others to react and to reply to those reactions.

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      • OK there is a lot there but you do seem to be hammering the trinity thing, which I do not necessarily promote! However, my ONLY concern is with your doctrine of atonement, that you do not seem to understand that God completely removed the consequences of sin so that sin no longer has any power at all to condemn us, since the cross was god’s love in action forgiving the world. Of course if the world ignores this free gift of righteousness and chooses to remain in death, they are like the man who was healed and then did not return to give thanks, the healing is only temporarily applied, which corresponds to the time of grace. So even though there is a more complicated explanation of the cross in terms of God’s love always being active to remit sin, so much so that we can COMPLETELY RELY ON IT/HIM; and that the simple words used to explain the cross are in fact true. “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree”. “As far as East is from west, so far has he removed our sin from us”. “This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sin”. These are actually true as stated, there is no trick to them, or of these words any complicated understanding to be had that then rearranges the simplicity of what is being said. “One died for all, therefore all died”. Therefore sin is completely dealt with and done with. The cross is God’s forgiveness to the world, he does not hold men’s sin against them, he FORGIVES it all so they might then be free of its effects to pursue the life offered through the Spirit of life because death has now been abolished. Without the acceptance that by his action on the cross he has completely dealt with all sin for all time, we can never be free, always looking over the shoulder to see who is ready to pounce on us for some sin committed. He has given us the death we needed to free us from condemnation, and always gives us this death ongoingly, without holding us responsible for ongoing sin, so we can then always move forward in Him, in his life. God is continually forgiving because he is continually loving, this is who he is and what he does. The key to understanding this is to recognise that He is not interested in death or the things of death (“He has abolished the law”) but only in life and the things of life. He is not interested in making men accountable for their sin, although this will happen as a consequence of sin, not as punishment for them. He is only interested in having people respond to the reconciliation he has put forth in order for them to have life. To sum up, God has removed the inevitability of death for sin by forgiving that which otherwise would bring death to the person. He literally died FOR US whether you see the “He” as being the son or the father, since the commonality of the love between them meant that they both suffered. There is a saying “love hurts” and this describes the action of the love that God has towards his creation; we see love hurting on the cross. This covers all sin for all time insofar as its power to retain people in death. Then of course it is not a matter of “trying to be righteous” because in removing our sin he provides his own righteousness for all who believe. We do not “work our way up from the bottom”, He lifts us up to where He is because we are now his children, cleansed by our faith in His cleansing of us, cleansed by our realisation that He is perpetual love, and love perpetually forgives. “Love keeps no account of wrongs”.

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      • If sin would not bring us to death, like you write all people could sin as much they ever wanted. So why in so many Christian churches so many priests or ministers frighten people with ‘burning for ever in hell’ when god previously has said by death people would have paid for their sins. Now suddenly they say the people are saved by Christ and sin can do nothing, but somehow they would end up in a hellfire? We do believe that we still shall die and that we shall decay, but that Jesus shall return to judge us. When there would be sinning no problem for mankind any more Jesus would have nobody to judge because all would be saved. We believe in the many lessons Jesus gave in his parables about the need of having to feel sorry and to repent about our sins, otherwise the free given grace of salvation will not come over us. Like Jesus told we believe that faith without works is death. You may believe that people do not have to commit themselves to God any more and do not have to live according to the commandments of God. But we do believe all people should come to God, accept Him as their Father, and should listen and follow His commandments to be able to go through the small gate of the Kingdom of God. (What do you understand then about those parables of the small gate or the tiny door and the camel going through the needle?)

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      • We do believe though the Grace of salvation is given to all people, goyim (gentiles) or non-believers as well as to believers but lots of work has to be done to be able to enjoy all the pleasures of that freedom of death.

        1. People have to come to understand they are fallible.
        2. a person has to see and understand he or she has done things wrong.
        3 That person has to regret the things he or she has done wrong.
        4. After becoming aware to have wrong things the person has to regret them, show to have remorse
        5 and have to ask forgiveness to God.
        6 then the person has come to believe in the sent one from God, the only begotten beloved son of God, him to be the Kristos or Christ, the Messiah
        7 When having come into the faith of Jesus Christ the person has to go over to let him or herself be baptised and have the sins symbolically whitewashed in the name of Christ
        8 Once baptised the conversion does not stop … continually a person has to work at his faith, listening to the Word of God and studying it.
        9 Once having become a part of the Body of Christ that person has to live accordingly, following the commandments of God, trying not to sin any more.
        10But humbling ourselves before God we have to recognise that we are sinners and every time we do go in against those commandments of God, i.e. every time we do sin, we have to regret it and ask forgiveness.

        You see we already mentioned 10 works a person has to do to be able to enter the small gate of the Kingdom of God.

        Those who say a person has nothing to do any more, is fooling you and is obstructing the way to God and the way to enter the small gate of the Kingdom of God.

        Let yourself not be blinded, but keep to the words of God and read what is written in the Bible, not by holding fast to your human doctrines which your church may have pressed into your head, but keep to the Biblical doctrines which are given for all to discover in those very old books.

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      • First you should remember that Jesus did not come to earth to destroy the Law of God (like so many trinitarians do).

        First there is the most important 1st commandement to worship only One true God, the God of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus and his disciples of Whom may not be made any graven image.
        It is that Most High God we do have to love and only worship Him. We may not bow down in front of statues or images representing men, animals or plants. As such we may not pray to any idol or so called saint.

        “1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,” (Exodus 20:1-5 ASV)

        Even when under the grace of salvation and being baptised we are not allowed to do whatever comes up in our mind and to follow our fleshly desires. We always should follow the Will of God which is given in the Word of God, the Bible. In that Book of books you may find many directions a person should try to follow. There are too many laws to mention here but all can be brought to one Golden Rule which is to “love one another like you would love yourself”, having us to show the agapè love to all creation of God (people, animals and plants) always keeping God’ commandments and putting His Wil before the rules of man

        “and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:6 ASV)

        “Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the [powers] that be are ordained of God.” (Romans 13:1 ASV)

        “Put them in mind to be in subjection to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready unto every good work,” (Titus 3:1 ASV)

        “They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Matthew 22:21 ASV)

        “But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29 ASV)

        Therefore we should not follow human doctrines but should keep to the Biblical doctrines, on essential point in our believes. always remembering

        “For the law having a shadow of the good [things] to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.” (Hebrews 10:1 ASV)

        “22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:” (Hebrews 9:22-24 ASV)

        In Christ we do have our mediator between God and man. In him we should trust, but may not ignore his teachings, with the knowledge that he is the Way to God and the one to judge the living and the dead, having been given the authority by God to decide who shall be allowed to enter the small gate of the Kingdom.

        Only in the man about whom prophets say he is the Christ, is salvation for us, but it is by faith in him that we can be called by the righteous, when we keep righteous.

        “21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;” (Romans 3:21-22 ASV)

        “11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 in whom we have boldness and access in confidence through our faith in him.” (Ephesians 3:11-12 ASV)

        “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6 ASV)

        “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 ASV)

        We are convinced belief in Christ is also an essential point to fall under the salvation. According to us it is not to belong to this or that church or denomination or religious group … but by believing in Christ and the One Who sent Jesus Christ, god the only heavenly Father and Most High Divine Creator.

        Only that faith in the promises of God, Jesus and expecting the things God has promised we have that guaranty of blessings.

        “Now faith is assurance of [things] hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1 ASV)

        “But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;” (Romans 11:17 ASV)

        “yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16 ASV)

        “Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;” (Romans 5:1 ASV)

        “But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” (Galatians 3:23 ASV)

        We are asked to stay strong in faith and to proof to be under Christ. Too many christians do forget that by unbelief they will not be partakers and when they do not keep to the commandments of God not to do wrong to others, they will be called faulty and not able to enter the small gate.

        “Now therefore, in the sight of all Israel, the assembly of Jehovah, and in the audience of our God, observe and seek out all the commandments of Jehovah your God; that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children after you for ever.” (1 Chronicles 28:8 ASV)

        “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.” (Matthew 5:17 ASV)

        “For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:4 ASV)

        “but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed [to them] that it is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14 ASV)

        “13 ¶ And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; 14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;” (Colossians 2:13-14 ASV)

        The commandments of obeying God are still counting.

        “as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in [the time of] your ignorance:” (1 Peter 1:14 ASV)

        “29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. 30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:” (Acts 17:29-30 ASV)

        As already told in a previous reply that repentance is one to the major works we shall have to do in our life.

        You may think we do not need to follow God’s Laws and may think people may be lying, thieving, having sex with kids, people of all sexes and animals, murdering, and so many more bad things, but all laws given concerning those things are still counting according to us. And the many Laws given in the Bible show us clearly what is wrong and what is good and what can be done and what can not be done.

        “What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; [and it was] ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.” (Galatians 3:19 ASV)

        “because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law [cometh] the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20 ASV)

        “So that the law is become our tutor [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” (Galatians 3:24 ASV)

        “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9 ASV)

        “1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:1-2 ASV)

        “Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.” (James 5:16 ASV)

        It is important to know that one of the major laws concerns how we go about the set apart (or holy) Name of God.

        “Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” (Exodus 20:7 ASV)

        Not only should we honour God. We also should show respect to others, not forgetting our own parents.

        “Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.” (Exodus 20:12 ASV)

        Though many christians think they do not have to worry any more of what they do to others but we do think of the ten commandments God gave to Moshe (Moses) we should always remember

        “13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.” (Exodus 20:13-17 ASV)

        “but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Matthew 5:28 ASV)

        also remember following commandments:
        “Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:1 ASV)

        “he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6 ASV)

        “having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1 Peter 2:12 ASV)

        “3 giving no occasion of stumbling in anything, that our ministration be not blamed; 4 but in everything commending ourselves, as ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,” (2 Corinthians 6:3-4 ASV)

        “And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2 ASV)

        “14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in [the time of] your ignorance: 15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; 16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:14-16 ASV)

        “22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; 23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.” (Ephesians 4:22-24 ASV)

        “9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:” (Colossians 3:9-10 ASV)

        “Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.” (Galatians 5:26 ASV)

        “And he said unto them, Take heed, and keep yourselves from all covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.” (Luke 12:15 ASV)

        “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;” (Ephesians 5:3 ASV)

        “For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” (Ephesians 5:5 ASV)

        “but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11 ASV)

        “but in everything commending ourselves, as ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,” (2 Corinthians 6:4 ASV)

        “in pureness, in knowledge, in long suffering, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in love unfeigned,” (2 Corinthians 6:6 ASV)

        “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:” (Ephesians 4:31 ASV)

        “For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.” (2 Timothy 1:7 ASV)

        “But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 ASV)

        “Be ye free from the love of money; content with such things as ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee.” (Hebrews 13:5 ASV)

        “15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:15-16 ASV)

        “The desire of the sluggard killeth him; For his hands refuse to labor.” (Proverbs 21:25 ASV)

        “in diligence not slothful; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;” (Romans 12:11 ASV)

        “And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28 ASV)

        “The fear of man bringeth a snare; But whoso putteth his trust in Jehovah shall be safe.” (Proverbs 29:25 ASV)

        “Jehovah is on my side; I will not fear: What can man do unto me?” (Psalms 118:6 ASV)

        “but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth:” (Colossians 3:8 ASV)

        “8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: Fret not thyself, [it tendeth] only to evil-doing. 9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; But those that wait for Jehovah, they shall inherit the land.” (Psalms 37:8-9 ASV)

        “He that is soon angry will deal foolishly; And a man of wicked devices is hated.” (Proverbs 14:17 ASV)

        “An angry man stirreth up strife, And a wrathful man aboundeth in transgression.” (Proverbs 29:22 ASV)

        “For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:” (1 Peter 2:15 ASV)

        “When pride cometh, then cometh shame; But with the lowly is wisdom.” (Proverbs 11:2 ASV)

        “Pride [goeth] before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18 ASV)

        “But now ye glory in your vauntings: all such glorying is evil.” (James 4:16 ASV)

        “[doing] nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;” (Philippians 2:3 ASV)

        “14 But if ye have bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, glory not and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not [a wisdom] that cometh down from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where jealousy and faction are, there is confusion and every vile deed.” (James 3:14-16 ASV)

        “This evil people, that refuse to hear my words, that walk in the stubbornness of their heart, and are gone after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is profitable for nothing.” (Jeremiah 13:10 ASV)

        “For the bishop must be blameless, as God’s steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;” (Titus 1:7 ASV)

        “but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise dominion. Daring, self-willed, they tremble not to rail at dignities:” (2 Peter 2:10 ASV)

        “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, he hath also rejected thee from being king.” (1 Samuel 15:23 ASV)

        “Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.” (1 Corinthians 10:14 ASV)

        “but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11 ASV)

        “9 ¶ Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ASV)

        “For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries:” (1 Peter 4:3 ASV)

        “Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy.” (Romans 13:13 ASV)

        “19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21 ASV)

        “who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:” (1 Peter 2:23 ASV)

        “And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, and forbear threatening: knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no respect of persons with him.” (Ephesians 6:9 ASV)

        “but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11 ASV)

        “9 ¶ Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ASV)

        “For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries:” (1 Peter 4:3 ASV)

        “3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.” (Ephesians 5:3-4 ASV)

        “from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking;” (1 Timothy 1:6 ASV)

        “20 Be not among winebibbers, Among gluttonous eaters of flesh: 21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty; And drowsiness will clothe [a man] with rags.” (Proverbs 23:20-21 ASV)

        “Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son; But he that is a companion of gluttons shameth his father.” (Proverbs 28:7 ASV)

        “Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.” (1 Corinthians 10:10 ASV)

        “lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,” (Colossians 3:9 ASV)

        “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,” (Galatians 5:19 ASV)

        “envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21 ASV)

        “For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” (Ephesians 5:5 ASV)

        “21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: 23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.” (Mark 7:21-23 ASV)

        “28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.” (Acts 15:28-29 ASV)

        “For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other men’s matters:” (1 Peter 4:15 ASV)

        “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13 ASV)

        “For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:” (Matthew 15:19 ASV)

        “28 And even as they refused to have God in [their] knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:” (Romans 1:28-31 ASV)

        “3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.” (Ephesians 5:3-4 ASV)

        “12 having condemnation, because they have rejected their first pledge. 13 And withal they learn also [to be] idle, going about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.” (1 Timothy 5:12-13 ASV)

        “For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other men’s matters:” (1 Peter 4:15 ASV)

        and so many others too much to bring all the quotes here … But if you do not believe me yet of so many laws we do have to keep I shall be willing to give more quotes. (they are waiting for me to come at the table)

        We are convinced that even when given for nothing the free gift of grace we still can miss the race and not be found worthy to enter the kingdom of God. When we do not keep our mind in control and as such do not work to stay in the faith and keeping to God His commandments we will miss the boat. And worst will be it when we do a sin against God’s Spirit.

        “31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.” (Matthew 12:31-32 ASV)

        I have above mentioned the main commandments to which a believer in God and every human being should keep. I also want you to point to the many teachings in the Bible which say how we can avoid doing wrong. You might call them not commandments, but it are good rules to which a Christian better keeps himself. As such we give the advice to our members to avoid bad companions who can give the opportunity to tempt the person. Like the Bible tells us not to go along with them, we advice our members to avoid certain films, companies, situations or events, etc.. You have positive laws but also negative laws like being told we may not do certain things. As such people may not go out and raise some hell. People also can not say “Let’s beat up some old man, mug some old woman.”

        “10 My son, if sinners entice thee, Consent thou not. 11 If they say, Come with us, Let us lay wait for blood; Let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause;” (Proverbs 1:10-11 ASV)

        “My son, walk not thou in the way with them; Refrain thy foot from their path:” (Proverbs 1:15 ASV)

        Other ideas, tasks or regulations given is the command of Jesus to go out into the world and to preach the coming Kingdom of God.

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      • I only gave some quotes from Scriptures about some commandments but do know there are many more given in Scriptures. .Please look at the 385 commandments given by God (in the Old Testament of the Bible) and also look at the commandments given by Christ (in the New Testament).

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  2. There were two covenants, the old and the new. The old was based on commandments laws rules and regulations. The new is based on grace and the forgiveness of sin by “faith in his blood”. The old has gone, the new has come. You cannot take the old and try to cause it to be the SOURCE of the “Spirit” which was the free gift given at Pentecost, by promise.

    To answer an earlier question about the “narrow way”, or “gate” – Yes narrow is the way to life and few there are that find it. Broad is the way to destruction. The narrow gate is similar to “the great gulf” in the parable of the rich man in hell and Lazarus. There is a great gap, a separation between man and God, and the pathway to bridging that gap is narrow. The gulf is the difference between life and death, truth and lie, righteousness and unrighteousness. Since “the fall” of man, his corruption caused by the lie has extended and broadened. Jesus is the narrow gate that most people exclude from their “life” (death), he bridged the gap between life and death, heaven and hell, and placed us squarely alongside him in heaven. We are now seated in the heavenly place with him. This “way” is not a way of conforming to precepts rules commandments or regulations, which are a system of trying to establish righteousness as a law which governs or regulates the flesh in the problem of sin. This new “way” is the way of the free gift of righteousness, the free gift of life, and the Spirit which was something special that could only be dispensed once Jesus had returned to heaven. It was the promise that was received by faith in Him and his sacrifice. “The Lord is the Spirit”. “The Spirit is the truth” (so the truth, the true Spirit, is the Lord himself, his presence, not just his power). The law is the old covenant of death. The Spirit which comes through grace is the covenant of life. The law governs the flesh (death)(Romans 7), The Spirit governs the “soul” (life)(Romans 8). The old way is to try to govern the flesh (person), the new way is to completely renew the person. (Death to flesh, new life by Spirit/heart).

    On the question of “If sin would not bring us to death…”. Sin does not have to bring us to death, we are already in that death. But through Jesus we do not have to REMAIN IN that death. We now can choose to LEAVE that death by accepting his sacrificial forgiveness of sin, of us. Before this, the consequences of sin were INEVITABLY death, and it was this inevitability that was the power to hold us in the sin state and in the continuing to sin condition. We can now JUMP straight from sin (death) to life, “..He has transferred us into the kingdom of his Son..” The power of ONGOING sin is removed, cannot now transfer us to the death state again because we now “Know and rely on the love he has for us”, and we rely on the ongoing cleansing that his love provides. This is not an excuse, not a “cop-out” or some cheap form of grace. It is based on his extreme sacrifice of his life for us and the awareness that our freedom from being compelled to sin is based on his shed blood for us. He has abolished death and brought immortality to light, so we can freely participate in life as we are led by His redemptive Spirit, which is in fact, Himself. (He himself is our forgiveness).

    Life stands for life’s sake, life is justified in itself, and cannot be removed other than by willingly leaving it and turning back to death. All sin has been dealt with for all time. Life is a free gift and his love is always active and able to wash away accidental or inadvertent sin.

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