GOD’S LOVE AND HIS WRATH ARE THE SAME THING [865e]

When two opposing forces come together, there is conflict, and a resolution must result. We see this conflict within man, and see his anger as an outworking or display of this conflict.

When righteousness and unrighteousness come together, there is conflict. Now God and his Spirit of love are righteousness, and man and his spirit of sin are unrighteousness. These two, like Spirit and flesh, are incompatible and conflict results.

The nature of this conflict is that there is an agitation of the elements involved, and the stronger of them will overcome the weaker, and God who is love and righteousness will always emerge victorious from such a contest, as he did in Jesus on the cross, where, although death resulted to the physical, confirmed spiritual life then re-emerged with a new physical, that of the immortal body.

So when God’s love is in confrontation with man’s sin which is IN man, the internal agitation caused by the fear of the judgement inherent in this action which seeks a remedy to the difference between God’s righteousness and our unrighteousness, results in anger and what we perceive to be God’s “wrath”. With this wrath “on” us and in us, we are extremely uncomfortable, to say the least.

But it is God’s love we are experiencing, it is just that it is in opposition to what we are or have become because we identify with our sin nature, not with His love nature. He is flame to our paper. His nature HAS to create drama and trauma in us, for us, because our human nature is only temporary and must undergo change to be atone with HIS nature, the divine nature.

We experience the judgement on sin WITHIN us, and this results in the inner guilt that we feel whenever anything to do with God or righteousness presents itself to our awareness or consciousness. And because we were made in HIS image, we condemn ourselves because, having the knowledge of good and bad, we are capable of judging ourselves as guilty also. We also create inner wrath because we know our position is untenable and unsurviveable, unsustainable.

God then reveals to us that His very own nature of love through his very only begotten son, has confronted the sin nature of man that lies in his natural body and which lay in Jesus body also, and brought about the ultimate conflict and wrath towards the nature of “sin in the flesh”. Jesus’ personal “Armageddon”, which is also OUR “Armageddon”, and brought about, in the nature of his love, the “final resolution”.

The nature of love has been assaulted and tortured to the death  within the same body of sin that hosted the perfect spirit nature that Jesus was, and the Father suffered this conflict also as he watched his son die a terrible death on his cross. The perfect Spirit of Jesus was in conflict with the, our, inner nature of sinful flesh. His loving righteousness was brought to bear on the corrupted sin nature of “sin in the flesh” and the inner stress of this was painful and of immense anguish, as He was confronted with the reality of what the absence of the Spirit of God means in the darkness of its terrible presence. He was ‘in anguish in its flame’. The fires of hell brought Him to the ‘pit’ of hell, the grave, the tomb, from which he would emerge victorious, having overcome his mortal body, having changed it through loving conflict, to an immortal body.

This victory is ours in Him who has wrought this victory and who now presents it to us as a completed gift of life, of righteousness. The battle is over, “It is finished” for him and for us. Our only “battle” now is to install by faith this victory over death and all its components. And this “battle” lies in accepting this truth, that he has come in the flesh and provided all that we need to live life in and from Him, he who is love, and the “installation” lies only in this one word, BELIEVE.

GOD’S LOVE AND HIS WRATH ARE THE SAME THING [865d]

When two opposing forces come together, there is conflict, and a resolution must result. We see this conflict within man, and see his anger as an outworking or display of this conflict.

When righteousness and unrighteousness come together, there is conflict. Now God and his Spirit of love are righteousness, and man and his spirit of sin are unrighteousness. These two, like Spirit and flesh, are incompatible and conflict results.

The nature of this conflict is that there is an agitation of the elements involved, and the stronger of them will overcome the weaker, and God who is love and righteousness will always emerge victorious from such a contest, as he did in Jesus on the cross, where, although death resulted to the physical, confirmed spiritual life then re-emerged with a new physical, that of the immortal body.

So when God’s love is in confrontation with man’s sin which is IN man, the internal agitation caused by the fear of the judgement inherent in this action which seeks a remedy to the difference between God’s righteousness and our unrighteousness, results in anger and what we perceive to be God’s “wrath”. With this wrath “on” us and in us, we are extremely uncomfortable, to say the least.

But it is God’s love we are experiencing, it is just that it is in opposition to what we are or have become because we identify with our sin nature, not with His love nature. He is flame to our paper. His nature HAS to create drama and trauma in us, for us, because our human nature is only temporary and must undergo change to be atone with HIS nature, the divine nature.

We experience the judgement on sin WITHIN us, and this results in the inner guilt that we feel whenever anything to do with God or righteousness presents itself to our awareness or consciousness. And because we were made in HIS image, we condemn ourselves because, having the knowledge of good and bad, we are capable of judging ourselves as guilty also. We also create inner wrath because we know our position is untenable and unsurviveable, unsustainable.

God then reveals to us that His very own nature of love through his very only begotten son, has confronted the sin nature of man that lies in his natural body and which lay in Jesus body also, and brought about the ultimate conflict and wrath towards the nature of “sin in the flesh”. Jesus’ personal “Armageddon”, which is also OUR “Armageddon”, and brought about, in the nature of his love, the “final resolution”.

The nature of love has been assaulted and tortured to the death  within the same body of sin that hosted the perfect spirit nature that Jesus was, and the Father suffered this conflict also as he watched his son die a terrible death on his cross. The perfect Spirit of Jesus was in conflict with the, our, inner nature of sinful flesh. His loving righteousness was brought to bear on the corrupted sin nature of “sin in the flesh” and the inner stress of this was painful and of immense anguish, as He was confronted with the reality of what the absence of the Spirit of God means in the darkness of its terrible presence. He was ‘in anguish in its flame’. The fires of hell brought Him to the ‘pit’ of hell, the grave, the tomb, from which he would emerge victorious, having overcome his mortal body, having changed it through loving conflict, to an immortal body.

This victory is ours in Him who has wrought this victory and who now presents it to us as a completed gift of life, of righteousness. The battle is over, “It is finished” for him and for us. Our only “battle” now is to install by faith this victory over death and all its components. And this “battle” lies in accepting this truth, that he has come in the flesh and provided all that we need to live life in and from Him, he who is love, and the “installation” lies only in this one word, BELIEVE.

JESUS ENTERED INTO THE DARKNESS [165aj]

The difficulty of understanding all aspects of the cross may be lessened by understanding why Jesus said “My God…” in relation to his Father, since that is how most of mankind views God, as some sort of distant upholder of the law who is intent on bringing us to justice for our sins.

The subject of light and darkness is present in scripture as a means of understanding the good happy stuff as distinct from the bad sad stuff. That God is light and we (sin) are darkness. That he dwells in light while we dwell in darkness. [darkness is scary because you can’t see where you’re going].

When Jesus “bore our sin”, he entered into the darkness that is common to mankind, he entered into the state of separation from God who is light. This separation from God is a theme which began in the garden when Adam failed to maintain his relationship with God, who was his Father. Henceforth his relationship would be felt by him [Adam] as one who was an outcast from God’s presence, and as one who was unworthy of God’s love.

He felt this condition because his PERCEPTION of God had been altered by the cloud of sin and guilt that acted as a filter to prevent his own view of himself as being one who was acceptable and lovable. Where once there was only the singularity of God and his love, there now lay the complexity of sin and guilt, which heavily filtered out the light and brought darkness to his “soul”. [this darkness is seen as condemnation and “wrath” ]

Jesus was “made in all points as us”. This means he was not only the perfect son of God, but that he was a “heavenly Spirit” who lived in an earthly body. As such, his identity was always that of consciously being “The Son of God”, and to him, God was his Father. “Do you not know that I must be about my Father’s business” he said when he was twelve years old or so. This identity heavily “polarised” him so that his conscious self always dwelt within this identity, and any temptation that came to him was immediately isolated as being from an “alien” source.

This position/condition remained with him throughout his life until he began to enter into his “passion”, which means until he began to enter into the realm within himself that was identified as man’s “world”, man’s consciousness, man’s deficiencies, and man’s sins and the very mechanism within from which and by which sin is generated. This passion began in the garden, where he began to feel the effects of it so severely that he literally began to die*. “Father if it be thy will let this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, thy will be done”.

This is ultimately portrayed on the cross where literal darkness came over the scene. Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken [abandoned] [left] me.” He was no longer feeling the loving presence of his Father, he was feeling the same sense of isolation from Love that we feel, he was caught up in the darkness of “soul” that we feel, his perception was not that of his loving Father but that of an angry God who was confronting him with the sin that by indwelling mankind, continued to express and produce the works of darkness that he now felt within him.

He stayed in this condition, feeling what we call “hell”, subject to all that we perceive to be the “punishment” of hell, feeling the burning wrath of the inner conflict that had now erupted into anguish and agony of soul. Until at last all of the inner death that mankind had “brought to the table” had been extinguished, had been overcome, had been brought to a state of life, where previously there was only death. Sure, he could have bailed at any time, he could have, as Spirit, returned to the Father. But once entered into the battle, it was inconceivable that he would quit the mission for which he was born. He was entitled to retain life, but having uttered the words “It is finished”, having defeated the “enemy” and restored the human condition, he surrendered his life, his Spirit,  to God. To his now restored perception, of God as Father. He died.

God the Father was never any different, had not changed, yet sin had changed man’s idea, view, of God into being someone who was out for revenge, someone who wanted to set things right by punishing us for sin. And we feel that sense of punishment within, we feel the impending doom through guilt and fear of death, yet God has never changed from being the loving Father to us all. He has never wanted us to die in our sins, he has always been available to wash us in his love, to restore us from darkness to light. We simply have been blinded to him in that way, because of the indwelling  darkness of sin.

Jesus was the revelation of the true nature of God. He came to remove the blinkers from our eyes, to take the shroud of death from our hearts, to release us from the misery of self condemnation that was empowered by the law that exists within us because we were made as sons of God. That law that is reinforced by the correct judgement we bring to bear on ourselves, so that, unable to bear it, we hide from it and from him, because the perceived unattainable love is so painful and miserable a condition. Jesus entered into this same condition, and destroyed its validity, destroyed its falseness of accusation against us and God, so that by our recognition of his loving righteousness in restoring us in Jesus, we rightly judge and agree with his action in forgiving us in this way as being the ultimate righteousness of all.

As created sons of God, we condemned ourselves to the point where our perception was that God was of the same nature as our false perception.

Christ didn’t remove the barrier between us and God because there never was one. What he did was to reveal his Father as being our Father, by presenting him in the correct perspective in relation to us and our own faulty perspective. Certainly he destroyed the faulty nature of man and suffered that which was the natural outcome of our “sickness”.

But by showing the outcome of this process as being life itself, he draws us to himself and the heavenly Father. We are drawn to his love which is able to cleanse us as we submit to that which always was, from the perfection of his concern for us to perfect us in the love that he is. By faith our sins are remitted, as they do not exist in his eyes, but only in our eyes. Such sorrow there may be as to hold us back from such submission, but such love must ultimately bring us to his heart and allow that love to consume us and consume our faults, our defects, our sin and darkness. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”, no man comes to the Father but by me”.

Jesus exampled the father and also humanity within his own body. In this way he has become the high Priest for us, the intermediary for us. We are perfected in him, once we commit to him. We are not perfect as he is perfect, but we are perfected in that we will live with him regardless of our “performance” as we continue in the process of ultimate perfection, in which we are saved regardless of our ultimate condition, as long as we remain in him. “live a life of love”. “All things are yours”.

Love is the active ingredient that engages the enemy and suffers because of it. The nature of love is something that is continued in as faith builds a new reality which is really an old reality (I give you a new commandment which is really an old commandment) but is the reality of God and his love for us. Love one another, bear each others burdens, and so fulfill the “law” of Christ.

[* The idea of Jesus beginning to die was introduced by a certain theologian, but which should not dispel the accepted concept of it simply being the repugnancy of/for the condition of the sin experience he was about to enter. He also knew that when he was in this state that he would be unable to understand this separation from the Father, giving rise to “why have you forsaken me?”]

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-died-for-our-sins.html

This link is provided to an article on the atonement, but I have not yet checked out the source, nor many of the other associated articles. I know they have got at least one thing wrong, that being where they say that Paul in Romans 7 was struggling with sin, which is a bad error if they are saying He did this as a Christian, which I think is what they are saying. And while it covers many subjects, it may be the opening of a can of theological errors. For those with the time to investigate further, it may be an interesting exercise in futility, or an expose’ of whoever the originating authority is. THEIR Romans 7 ref.   https://www.compellingtruth.org/assurance-of-salvation.html

Canxiety Cdepression

JESUS ENTERED INTO THE DARKNESS [165ai]

The difficulty of understanding all aspects of the cross may be lessened by understanding why Jesus said “My God…” in relation to his Father, since that is how most of mankind views God, as some sort of distant upholder of the law who is intent on bringing us to justice for our sins.

The subject of light and darkness is present in scripture as a means of understanding the good happy stuff as distinct from the bad sad stuff. That God is light and we (sin) are darkness. That he dwells in light while we dwell in darkness. [darkness is scary because you can’t see where you’re going].

When Jesus “bore our sin”, he entered into the darkness that is common to mankind, he entered into the state of separation from God who is light. This separation from God is a theme which began in the garden when Adam failed to maintain his relationship with God, who was his Father. Henceforth his relationship would be felt by him [Adam] as one who was an outcast from God’s presence, and as one who was unworthy of God’s love.

He felt this condition because his PERCEPTION of God had been altered by the cloud of sin and guilt that acted as a filter to prevent his own view of himself as being one who was acceptable and lovable. Where once there was only the singularity of God and his love, there now lay the complexity of sin and guilt, which heavily filtered out the light and brought darkness to his “soul”. [this darkness is seen as condemnation and “wrath” ]

Jesus was “made in all points as us”. This means he was not only the perfect son of God, but that he was a “heavenly Spirit” who lived in an earthly body. As such, his identity was always that of consciously being “The Son of God”, and to him, God was his Father. “Do you not know that I must be about my Father’s business” he said when he was twelve years old or so. This identity heavily “polarised” him so that his conscious self always dwelt within this identity, and any temptation that came to him was immediately isolated as being from an “alien” source.

This position/condition remained with him throughout his life until he began to enter into his “passion”, which means until he began to enter into the realm within himself that was identified as man’s “world”, man’s consciousness, man’s deficiencies, and man’s sins and the very mechanism within from which and by which sin is generated. This passion began in the garden, where he began to feel the effects of it so severely that he literally began to die*. “Father if it be thy will let this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, thy will be done”.

This is ultimately portrayed on the cross where literal darkness came over the scene. Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken [abandoned] [left] me.” He was no longer feeling the loving presence of his Father, he was feeling the same sense of isolation from Love that we feel, he was caught up in the darkness of “soul” that we feel, his perception was not that of his loving Father but that of an angry God who was confronting him with the sin that by indwelling mankind, continued to express and produce the works of darkness that he now felt within him.

He stayed in this condition, feeling what we call “hell”, subject to all that we perceive to be the “punishment” of hell, feeling the burning wrath of the inner conflict that had now erupted into anguish and agony of soul. Until at last all of the inner death that mankind had “brought to the table” had been extinguished, had been overcome, had been brought to a state of life, where previously there was only death. Sure, he could have bailed at any time, he could have, as Spirit, returned to the Father. But once entered into the battle, it was inconceivable that he would quit the mission for which he was born. He was entitled to retain life, but having uttered the words “It is finished”, having defeated the “enemy” and restored the human condition, he surrendered his life, his Spirit,  to God. To his now restored perception, of God as Father. He died.

God the Father was never any different, had not changed, yet sin had changed man’s idea, view, of God into being someone who was out for revenge, someone who wanted to set things right by punishing us for sin. And we feel that sense of punishment within, we feel the impending doom through guilt and fear of death, yet God has never changed from being the loving Father to us all. He has never wanted us to die in our sins, he has always been available to wash us in his love, to restore us from darkness to light. We simply have been blinded to him in that way, because of the indwelling  darkness of sin.

Jesus was the revelation of the true nature of God. He came to remove the blinkers from our eyes, to take the shroud of death from our hearts, to release us from the misery of self condemnation that was empowered by the law that exists within us because we were made as sons of God. That law that is reinforced by the correct judgement we bring to bear on ourselves, so that, unable to bear it, we hide from it and from him, because the perceived unattainable love is so painful and miserable a condition. Jesus entered into this same condition, and destroyed its validity, destroyed its falseness of accusation against us and God, so that by our recognition of his loving righteousness in restoring us in Jesus, we rightly judge and agree with his action in forgiving us in this way as being the ultimate righteousness of all.

As created sons of God, we condemned ourselves to the point where our perception was that God was of the same nature as our false perception.

Christ didn’t remove the barrier between us and God because there never was one. What he did was to reveal his Father as being our Father, by presenting him in the correct perspective in relation to us and our own faulty perspective. Certainly he destroyed the faulty nature of man and suffered that which was the natural outcome of our “sickness”.

But by showing the outcome of this process as being life itself, he draws us to himself and the heavenly Father. We are drawn to his love which is able to cleanse us as we submit to that which always was, from the perfection of his concern for us to perfect us in the love that he is. By faith our sins are remitted, as they do not exist in his eyes, but only in our eyes. Such sorrow there may be as to hold us back from such submission, but such love must ultimately bring us to his heart and allow that love to consume us and consume our faults, our defects, our sin and darkness. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”, no man comes to the Father but by me”.

Jesus exampled the father and also humanity within his own body. In this way he has become the high Priest for us, the intermediary for us. We are perfected in him, once we commit to him. We are not perfect as he is perfect, but we are perfected in that we will live with him regardless of our “performance” as we continue in the process of ultimate perfection, in which we are saved regardless of our ultimate condition, as long as we remain in him. “live a life of love”. “All things are yours”.

Love is the active ingredient that engages the enemy and suffers because of it. The nature of love is something that is continued in as faith builds a new reality which is really an old reality (I give you a new commandment which is really an old commandment) but is the reality of God and his love for us. Love one another, bear each others burdens, and so fulfill the “law” of Christ.

[* The idea of Jesus beginning to die was introduced by a certain theologian, but which should not dispel the accepted concept of it simply being the repugnancy of/for the condition of the sin experience he was about to enter. He also knew that when he was in this state that he would be unable to understand this separation from the Father, giving rise to “why have you forsaken me?”]

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-died-for-our-sins.html

This link is provided to an article on the atonement, but I have not yet checked out the source, nor many of the other associated articles. I know they have got at least one thing wrong, that being where they say that Paul in Romans 7 was struggling with sin, which is a bad error if they are saying He did this as a Christian, which I think is what they are saying. And while it covers many subjects, it may be the opening of a can of theological errors. For those with the time to investigate further, it may be an interesting exercise in futility, or an expose’ of whoever the originating authority is. THEIR Romans 7 ref.   https://www.compellingtruth.org/assurance-of-salvation.html

Canxiety Cdepression

JESUS WILL RETURN IN FLAMING FIRE [1387]

I am not going to get technical with this, it will float straight of the top of the head, as are most of my other posts.

People see the end times differently, there are all kinds of thinking available to peruse. The 1000 year reign is one aspect of this, post millennial and premillennial views, along with rapture and etc. etc.

I see it as important, from the point of view that I always seek the spiritual implication rather than the statistical or analytical one. For me it is not a matter of rational analysis built up on a reasonable explanation of scriptures, but rather the spiritual impact they have on my understanding.

My theology is largely based on what has seeped into my spirit from the reading and re-reading of scripture over a long, long period of time. Memory of course is a factor, and I never professed to be any good at memorising things, but it is amazing how scripture just seems to pop into one’s head. Occasionally, because of the memory factor, I get it wrong. Also sometimes it seems to be a matter of wanting a scripture to exist that actually doesn’t.

I recall this particular case where I was certain there was a verse “We know Him by the forgiveness of our sins” but I can’t find it anywhere. It may have been in a book by one of the known Christian authors, perhaps.

The friend I mentioned a few posts ago, is one of the usual “There is a 1000 year reign” brigade. Not unusual because these are the very words of Revelation. But it is still the book of Revelation, which is VERY disputable in terms of its literalness.

I asked him (now I am not going to research this or check any references for it) how could there be a 1000 year reign when it says that when Jesus returns, the earth will be destroyed? Perhaps I am missing something. (Yes, I know, you will say ‘quite a lot’).

Anyway, just threw that one in against the backdrop of “Our God is a consuming fire” and all the references to fire through the bible. The Spirit is symbolised by fire. The face of Moses returning from the mount, symbolises the ‘fire’ of the glory of God, as reflected in the law.

Daniel in the fiery furnace, the fire revealed at Pentecost, the fire of the popular “hell”, the fire of the righteousness of God as it burns into the conscience, as it burns away the uncleanliness of  our lives and consciences as we respond to Him. The “heaping of coals upon their heads”.

God’s Spirit is the fire that works in our lives now, to make us fit for His world then. When the fire that comes upon every man’s work to test Him arrives, it is Jesus, God, the Spirit in company with a host of angels (are these not all ministering spirits sent to serve?). This is the fire that destroys, converts, renews the world, the earth and the heavens, when the melting with fervent heat and loud noise, occurs.

And why would it not be with heat and noise if the very structure of the creation itself is being torn asunder, the atomic structure of all things as we understand it now to be, is reconstructed after the divine image, in the divine nature that He is. There are spiritual matters and physical matters. The old creation will go (and does go) as the new arrives. “As they went, they were healed”. As the old creation goes, it will be “healed” to end up as the new creation.

All those of the old will vanish in a puff of smoke (after they have been confronted with the reality of what they have become) as the new spiritual nature emerges from the clash of the difference between the old and the new. But there I go, asserting spiritual realities which I have not seen with my eyes, only felt in my heart as guided by scripture and my desire for spiritual things. [But also by directly asking Him for illumination by the Spirit].

[It is the stress of the incompatibility between Spirit nature and the physical creation that brings about the final creation itself, it either heals and reconstructs, or opposes and destroys][Inherent is the conflict between righteousness and unrighteousness]

JESUS WILL ALWAYS BE THE ANSWER TO A WRETCHED MAN’S QUESTION [1386]

I had a note or two hanging around from the Romans 7 saga. I suppose the thief on the cross would qualify for this same criteria too.

It will always be allegiance to Jesus that wins the day.

Romans 7 is every man’s “fiery furnace”. Is every man’s “hell”. Is every man’s “Armageddon”.

Romans 7 will put you in the furnace, so unless the Son of God is in there with you, you will get burned. Jesus said “without me you can do nothing”.

Jesus said “My God my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Paul said “Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me?”

The thief on the cross said “Don’t you fear God since you are under the same sentence?

[The thing is, to not be “of yourself”]

PAUL RE-ENTERS INTO THE DARKNESS OF ROMANS 7 [1340a]

Romans 7 was my basic entry point into theology in the sense that the wrong view of it was being taught in times past, and I sought to bring light to this to avoid others being led astray in similar fashion. It is still being taught wrongly today, but it is interesting how fresh aspects of it keep surfacing.

For example, Paul in 7 is demonstrating the same situation that Jesus found Himself in when He “Entered into the darkness” as in a previous post (165). Both Paul and Jesus experienced similar things, similar anguish and mental torment. Jesus said “Why have you forsaken me” and Paul said “wretched man that I am”. In this sense they were both experiencing the “hell” of separation from God.

Jesus bore the consequences within Himself, in His own flesh, of OUR flesh, of being of human nature and doomed to failure.

The success of Paul (and other believers) in Romans 8, following the disaster of Romans 7, is similar to the state in which Jesus lived while on the earth. The overcoming and conquering of the flesh, by faith, that Paul “accomplished” by belief in what Jesus had done, as apparent in Romans 8, is similar to how Jesus kept the flesh (His flesh) at arms length until His mission was coming to its final conclusion, and He had to confront His own flesh in His body and deal with it – heal it, convert it, destroy it. [bearing our sin].

Paul and believers now have taken up the position which Jesus gives us as a victory, to be taken by faith, as a free gift. That means that now we understand our identity in Him, that we also have “polarised” our being so that by our faith in His rendering of His flesh to death, so also is our flesh rendered inert and dead.

Jesus went from physical and spiritual life to physical death to eternal life, and we go from spiritual death (human flesh) to spiritual life and then physical death.

The same means of overcoming the flesh are employed, that being the polarisation of good and evil by the awareness of our identity, Jesus as literal Son of God, and we as adopted sons of God, by faith in what He achieved on our behalf, the ‘destruction’ of the flesh. (and law and death).

The wrong view would have you believe that Paul the Apostle had again (Galatians) “taken up the yoke of the law” (which neither He nor the Fathers were able to bear (Acts). In Romans 7, anywhere you read “I” in this chapter you should insert “without Jesus” because this is what it means. Jesus of course said that “without me you can do nothing”, and this is the prime example of a man being without Jesus, and left alone with His mind under the control of sin by the power of the law.

Law, you will note, is that which Christians are no longer under, but you will also note that the person in 7 is well and truly under the power of sin via the law. Paul in 7 is a victim of “The ministry of death”, the law. He begins this chapter by saying, “I write to those of you who know the law”, so it should hardly be considered strange that the WHOLE SUBJECT OF 7 IS THE LAW and what it does to people via the flesh.

What Paul is describing is the inner conflict which all men have, and which conflict destroys them. It is the same “hell” that all end up in, one way or another, some just passing through, others remain. You will note that up until verse 6 Paul is alive, but from 7 onward he is “dead“. It is no coincidence that the true ending of chapter 6 should be at chapter 7 verse 6, and the beginning of chapter 7 should be at verse 7. In this way, there is absolutely NO mention of any “Spirit” at all, and no “fruit of the Spirit”, and that it is an absolute disaster as you would expect from one who was ensnared under law and in captivity, a slave, to sin. [Dead man talking].

While He was on earth, Jesus avoided this conflict until the time came for Him to enter His “passion” and suffer in the same darkness which we have done and all men are in, and Paul in Romans 7 was in as well. This darkness (hell) is the separation from God which Jesus bore the conflict of in His own flesh, for us. We gain the benefit as a gift, His resultant Spirit is gifted to us so we might be sons and daughters of God, Law sin and death no more have power over us unless we let it. We now are gifted the will power which Paul in 7 was denied.

In R7, Paul was “under the wrath” of God just like Jesus was on the cross. “Law brings wrath”. The solution for Paul came in the victory of chapter 8  which was Jesus’ finished victory now accessible to us. [Paul the apostle revisited his own flesh/law situation in R7 and describes its/his conflict]

NOTE that Paul is both a Christian and an apostle at the time of writing, but that he is simply describing the power that sin had over us because of law, the law which Jesus abolished (in His flesh) (with His love). [funny that Paul should be entering into the law which Jesus has already abolished?].

PAUL RE-ENTERS INTO THE DARKNESS OF ROMANS 7 [1340]

Romans 7 was my basic entry point into theology in the sense that the wrong view of it was being taught in times past, and I sought to bring light to this to avoid others being led astray in similar fashion. It is still being taught wrongly today, but it is interesting how fresh aspects of it keep surfacing.

For example, Paul in 7 is demonstrating the same situation that Jesus found Himself in when He “Entered into the darkness” as in a previous post (165). Both Paul and Jesus experienced similar things, similar anguish and mental torment. Jesus said “Why have you forsaken me” and Paul said “wretched man that I am”. In this sense they were both experiencing the “hell” of separation from God.

Jesus bore the consequences within Himself, in His own flesh, of OUR flesh, of being of human nature and doomed to failure.

The success of Paul (and other believers) in Romans 8, following the disaster of Romans 7, is similar to the state in which Jesus lived while on the earth. The overcoming and conquering of the flesh, by faith, that Paul “accomplished” by belief in what Jesus had done, as apparent in Romans 8, is similar to how Jesus kept the flesh (His flesh) at arms length until His mission was coming to its final conclusion, and He had to confront His own flesh in His body and deal with it – heal it, convert it, destroy it. [bearing our sin].

Paul and believers now have taken up the position which Jesus gives us as a victory, to be taken by faith, as a free gift. That means that now we understand our identity in Him, that we also have “polarised” our being so that by our faith in His rendering of His flesh to death, so also is our flesh rendered inert and dead.

Jesus went from physical and spiritual life to physical death to eternal life, and we go from spiritual death (human flesh) to spiritual life and then physical death.

The same means of overcoming the flesh are employed, that being the polarisation of good and evil by the awareness of our identity, Jesus as literal Son of God, and we as adopted sons of God, by faith in what He achieved on our behalf, the ‘destruction’ of the flesh. (and law and death).

The wrong view would have you believe that Paul the Apostle had again (Galatians) “taken up the yoke of the law” (which neither He nor the Fathers were able to bear (Acts). In Romans 7, anywhere you read “I” in this chapter you should insert “without Jesus” because this is what it means. Jesus of course said that “without me you can do nothing”, and this is the prime example of a man being without Jesus, and left alone with His mind under the control of sin by the power of the law.

Law, you will note, is that which Christians are no longer under, but you will also note that the person in 7 is well and truly under the power of sin via the law. Paul in 7 is a victim of “The ministry of death”, the law. He begins this chapter by saying, “I write to those of you who know the law”, so it should hardly be considered strange that the WHOLE SUBJECT OF 7 IS THE LAW and what it does to people via the flesh.

What Paul is describing is the inner conflict which all men have, and which conflict destroys them. It is the same “hell” that all end up in, one way or another, some just passing through, others remain. You will note that up until verse 6 Paul is alive, but from 7 onward he is “dead“. It is no coincidence that the true ending of chapter 6 should be at chapter 7 verse 6, and the beginning of chapter 7 should be at verse 7. In this way, there is absolutely NO mention of any “Spirit” at all, and no “fruit of the Spirit”, and that it is an absolute disaster as you would expect from one who was ensnared under law and in captivity, a slave, to sin. [Dead man talking].

While He was on earth, Jesus avoided this conflict until the time came for Him to enter His “passion” and suffer in the same darkness which we have done and all men are in, and Paul in Romans 7 was in as well. This darkness (hell) is the separation from God which Jesus bore the conflict of in His own flesh, for us. We gain the benefit as a gift, His resultant Spirit is gifted to us so we might be sons and daughters of God, Law sin and death no more have power over us unless we let it. We now are gifted the will power which Paul in 7 was denied.

In R7, Paul was “under the wrath” of God just like Jesus was on the cross. “Law brings wrath”. The solution for Paul came in the victory of chapter 8  which was Jesus’ finished victory now accessible to us. [Paul the apostle revisited his own flesh/law situation in R7 and describes its/his conflict]

NOTE that Paul is both a Christian and an apostle at the time of writing, but that he is simply describing the power that sin had over us because of law, the law which Jesus abolished (in His flesh) (with His love). [funny that Paul should be entering into the law which Jesus has already abolished?].

JESUS DESTROYED HELL IN HIS BODY [1331b]

As a companion piece to the previous post (1330), this one reveals the nature of Hell, that it is not a place but an experience, a situation resulting from what we are when confronted with God’s righteousness. Also see “Christ’s Personal Armageddon” post number 57. See also post 865.

“Our God is a consuming fire”. The fire of hell as popularly depicted, while (perhaps) a reasonable expression of what may be considered as “punishment for sin”,  wildly distorts the true position with regard to the understanding and relativity of “hell” to the overall Christian message.

The suffering Jesus underwent on the cross was this self same “hell” that all people will be confronted with to varying degrees of ‘severity’. It is the confrontation between righteousness and unrighteousness, between God and man, in the final summation of man’s ‘reign of terror’ on the earth, in the form of a ‘faulty’ creation ‘gone wild’. It is also the only way that God could bring about the desired result of the revealing of His final and permanent creation.

Because Jesus experienced it for us, “it” being what could be considered to be the ‘legalistic’ ‘demands’ of a law of cause and effect, of a law of ‘justice’ whereby the natural result of all that we are or have become in the process of living this earthly life; (Karma?), is put aside by a God of not only true justice, but also of mercy and of loving forgiveness towards this, His intended creation.

The Creator Himself bears the cost of the creation, of its waywardness and exploration of itself and its own fallen nature. But the pain of the ‘childbirth’ must ultimately be shared by both Creator and created, they must together ‘work’ to see this creation through to the end, and for man this means the end of his lifetime.

So when through Christ, man accepts his responsibility in the scheme of things, allowing God to bear ultimate responsibility FOR us, the inherent conflict between man and God becomes more obvious, if not already so. Then Spirit can work with man to resolve the inner conflicts, both initially and ongoingly, but yet not without some stress and pain in the full realisation of the nature of love, being that it was Christ’s love that enabled Him to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Man enters into God’s ‘rest’ as he allows the finished work of Jesus to do its ‘work’ in him. Having found that rest, that peace, he then must continue the journey onwards while retaining it and outworking its reality, both in himself and towards others, as being already one of the new creation.

On the last day, God Jesus and the fire of the Spirit will come upon the creation to “prove” it, to test it, to see what of it is eternal and permanent, is spiritual, of the Spirit. EG to see where Jesus is in all His believers and to convert them into permanent spiritual form.

Everything which is not of the Spirit will be consumed by the Spirit, that which is of the Spirit will be made permanent, as will be the ‘new’ creation itself. It is this consummation by the Spirit which is the hell we are familiar with in contemporary writing, as well as scripture. Time frames for this are not notifiable, but the experience will be true to scripture, if not to man’s interpretation of it.

[“Every man’s work (every man) will be tested by fire”]. [Associated with the condition of hell, is the condition of “wrath”][“Wrath” is actually God’s love in confrontation with all that is not of love, of Him].

[Do not be surprised at the fiery trial that comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you][Although this seems to be talking of actual external opposition, (if we accept it is not spiritually designed) it also describes what happens at the end when all will be tested].[Though a fiery trial could also be the direct result of Spirit flesh interaction].

JESUS DESTROYED HELL IN HIS BODY [1331a]

As a companion piece to the previous post (1330), this one reveals the nature of Hell, that it is not a place but an experience, a situation resulting from what we are when confronted with God’s righteousness. Also see “Christ’s Personal Armageddon” post number 57. See also post 865.

“Our God is a consuming fire”. The fire of hell as popularly depicted, while (perhaps) a reasonable expression of what may be considered as “punishment for sin”,  wildly distorts the true position with regard to the understanding and relativity of “hell” to the overall Christian message.

The suffering Jesus underwent on the cross was this self same “hell” that all people will be confronted with to varying degrees of ‘severity’. It is the confrontation between righteousness and unrighteousness, between God and man, in the final summation of man’s ‘reign of terror’ on the earth, in the form of a ‘faulty’ creation ‘gone wild’. It is also the only way that God could bring about the desired result of the revealing of His final and permanent creation.

Because Jesus experienced it for us, “it” being what could be considered to be the ‘legalistic’ ‘demands’ of a law of cause and effect, of a law of ‘justice’ whereby the natural result of all that we are or have become in the process of living this earthly life; (Karma?), is put aside by a God of not only true justice, but also of mercy and of loving forgiveness towards this, His intended creation.

The Creator Himself bears the cost of the creation, of its waywardness and exploration of itself and its own fallen nature. But the pain of the ‘childbirth’ must ultimately be shared by both Creator and created, they must together ‘work’ to see this creation through to the end, and for man this means the end of his lifetime.

So when through Christ, man accepts his responsibility in the scheme of things, allowing God to bear ultimate responsibility FOR us, the inherent conflict between man and God becomes more obvious, if not already so. Then Spirit can work with man to resolve the inner conflicts, both initially and ongoingly, but yet not without some stress and pain in the full realisation of the nature of love, being that it was Christ’s love that enabled Him to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Man enters into God’s ‘rest’ as he allows the finished work of Jesus to do its ‘work’ in him. Having found that rest, that peace, he then must continue the journey onwards while retaining it and outworking its reality, both in himself and towards others, as being already one of the new creation.

On the last day, God Jesus and the fire of the Spirit will come upon the creation to “prove” it, to test it, to see what of it is eternal and permanent, is spiritual, of the Spirit. EG to see where Jesus is in all His believers and to convert them into permanent spiritual form.

Everything which is not of the Spirit will be consumed by the Spirit, that which is of the Spirit will be made permanent, as will be the ‘new’ creation itself. It is this consummation by the Spirit which is the hell we are familiar with in contemporary writing, as well as scripture. Time frames for this are not notifiable, but the experience will be true to scripture, if not to man’s interpretation of it.

[“Every man’s work (every man) will be tested by fire”]. [Associated with the condition of hell, is the condition of “wrath”][“Wrath” is actually God’s love in confrontation with all that is not of love, of Him].